Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode of Ghost Stories is brought to you by Satrix, the leading provider of index tracking solutions in South Africa and a proud partner of ghostmail. With no minimums and easy low cost access to local and global products via the Satrix now online investment platform, everyone can own the market. Visit Satrix Co Za for more information. Welcome to this episode of the Ghost Stories podcast. I'm pretty sure it's the Last one for 2024. Hopefully I'm right, quite honestly, because I think we could all do with a bit of a break. But the good news is that we are ending off with a really, really interesting show. You know, it's December now. It's the end of a very busy year. We've had elections at home and abroad. We've had this magical disappearance of load shedding that no one really understands. We learned that a GNU is a political thing, not just a wildebeest. We've seen some big moves in global markets. We've been reminded once more that if you're not invested in the market, you're not going to get those gains. But we've also been reminded that diversification is your friend. And now, after that whole whirlwind situation this year, we've landed in that part of the year that is hardest to manage your personal finances. Because it is indeed December, boss. And that means that reckless abandon is here and your credit card is here, and it may well be time to live your life. And somewhere in the middle is probably the right approach. But we'll talk a little bit about that on this show. We're also going to talk about some really cool statistics from Satrix. And I think what's really great is that we have a new voice on the podcast from Satrix. Now, I've been working with Rene Basson, who is the head of brand at Satrix for a good couple of years now. But she has never ventured in front of the camera. Not that we use the video, she's never ventured in front of the microphone to do a podcast with me. So this is very exciting. Renee, welcome to the show and thanks for bravely stepping up and finishing the year off with me on this podcast.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. You know what it's like. Marketers always are the ones behind the scenes, not in the scenes. You know.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah, there we go. The team has basically now forced you to say, listen, we've done enough of these things. It's your turn. It's time to stop directing from the back.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: So we're going to Do a really good show around this concept of what's called money dysmorphia, which I'd never heard of actually before reading the article you wrote. So I'm excited to get into that. But before we do, we are going to spend a little bit of time on the Satrix now platform. So before we get into some of the stats, which I think are going to be particularly interesting, let's maybe just set the scene of where this data is coming from. What is Satrix now? How long has it been around and what does it actually do?
[00:02:32] Speaker B: So Satrix now is our Satrix online investment platform and we launched it probably towards the end of 2015 in partnership with Easy Equities. So it's been around for quite a while. And the app itself launched in 2020. So it's your DIY platform. You can sign up, open an accounts and it's self directed.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Good timing in 2020. So you literally caught that Covid upswing of people suddenly investing from home. Was that by accident or was it already in the, you know, was it already in the works and you just happened to have amazing timing or was it in response to Covid?
[00:03:03] Speaker B: I think it was already in the works. It was before I joined, so it was, I think it was already in plan and it just happened that the timing worked out quite well for us.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah, sometimes life works out. You've got to be in the market to get lucky. That's the point. Including in business. So know there's a lesson in there. So there's obviously some really great data that comes through from this then, and I think it gives direct insights into the behavior of retail investors in particular, which is really, really helpful. And obviously the South African savings culture is something that we all know about. And you know, between what you do at Satrix, between what I do at the Finance Ghost, is all to try and address this and make it better and get people empowered to invest. So I personally am very keen to see what nuggets you have in that Christmas stocking of yours from Satrix. Now hit us with some stats. Let's see what's in there.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yes, I can share some stats around. Kind of two things that we look at. We look at registration, so individuals who've signed up and gone through a FIKA process. And then the second piece that we look at is funded clients or invested clients. So from a registration perspective, I'm looking at 2023 versus 2024 and the 24 numbers are to about mid November. We're looking at a 9% increase year on year on registrations. And then from a funded client perspective, an 8% increase year on year, which is really positive considering you know, what the markets have been up to in the economy.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I mean, they are not 8% more humans. In South Africa, population growth is way lower than that. So that suggests that the percentage of people who are coming into the platform and coming into the market is growing over time, which is very happy news.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: No, definitely. And then I can share some nice demographics details with you, some age stats. That's pretty interesting. So if you look at the registrations, the average age of someone who's registered is 32. And then from an invested client perspective, the average age is 41. If we look at since inception, so since Satrix now launched in 20, well end of 2015, that average invested age is about 38, so a little bit lower. And then from a gender perspective, registrations are predominantly male, so 55% are male. But if you look at invested clients, it's 52% female. We've seen a 1% increase year on year of female investors, which is really encouraging as well. And then let's look at location wise. I don't know if you have a sense of where you think most of our investors are from. Ghost.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: I mean, I want to guess Western Cape, but I'm biased. But maybe it's not that straightforward. Where is it, Khaten? Probably if it's just the number of.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Investors, yeah, it's G. So G is out predominantly where majority of the investors are. We've seen a bit of an increase of registrations from King, increase from Western Cape, and then it's followed by kzn, LPO and Eastern Cape.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Interesting. So that would reflect the level of wealth in the country overall, not necessarily trajectory, but just number of people, which is kind of what you would expect to see. Also really interesting age stats actually. I guess it's that phase of life as people have kind of gone through, you know, their roaring twenties where they are paying back student loans and trying to travel a little bit and doing a whole bunch of different jobs and just figuring out what on earth they're going to do with their lives. And in some cases getting married, not always, maybe having kids, early 30s. Obviously this is all very much averages. And then it seems to be at that point in time they kind of then hit the platform and say, okay, at some point we need to start investing for retirement. And I think the nuance here is people always need to remember that, you know, a retail investor Signing up to invest in exchange traded funds through the Satrix now platform is doing this in addition to forced pension savings at work. So this is someone who's actually said, I've now acknowledged and learned that, you know, what I'm forced to invest in from a retirement fund perspective through my salary. And it's usually the case that there's something, especially if you work for a larger corporate, you know, is not going to get me there. I need to do more. Which is absolutely right. And then they land in the platform. So very interesting stats.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And that actually gives me a good segue into kind of the average investment amounts of this retail investors.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Now that's the juicy stuff. I was, I was wondering if you were going to share some numbers. Let's see.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Well, I'll give you a percentage. Obviously I don't want to share numbers specifically, but I think from a average investment amount, 2023 versus 2024, it's a 61% increase, which is pretty impressive.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: I think that's huge.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: It's huge. Yeah.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Is that on the per month debit order type amount or is that the total account value?
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Total account value.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So some of that is the market's going up. Right. It's still really impressive.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it is really impressive. And then I'm sure you'd like to know the top funds or the most popular funds.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yes, definitely.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: The top five and 23 versus 24 are very, very similar. It's very small change. So Satrix 40, our flagship fund and the oldest ETF in South Africa is the most popular, both 23 and 24. And then in 2023 it was followed by the Satrix Divi, then Satrix Indie, Satrix MSCI World S&P 500 and then the Satrix NASDAQ. So I gave you six, 2024. The only difference was Satrix MSI World ETF was number two, but very, very similar.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: That is super interesting. And is that measured by new funds flowing in?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Or would that be measured based on the total value of those funds?
[00:08:09] Speaker B: It's total value of the funds and also how many new, how much new money is coming in. So how popular the funds are for new investors.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: So now I would have actually expected that the offshore stuff would be higher than that, you know, because that's where you can go and invest in Apple and Microsoft and all the fun stuff. And it seems like lots of people are still piling local funds, which is quite interesting. Some clear, I don't know, familiarity bias maybe.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Possibly. I really am not qualified to comment on that, to be honest. But I think the local stuff is still very popular, as we can see on the platform.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: No, it is definitely. Look, I can tell you from Ghostmail and my own insight into this is that even though I beat the drum very often, that offshore exposure is really important and that's where you are genuinely buying the world's best companies and everything else. I personally think it is familiarity bias because I can see, you know, if I put out an article on local news versus something really important on international news, the local news will just get way more hits. It just will. So I think there is an element of wanting to read about stuff that's close to home. Maybe people think that's where they have an edge, I'm not sure. But maybe the offshore stuff is just quite scary. Whatever the reason is that that seems to come through in your stats as well. So that makes sense.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it is interesting to see the MSI World ETF move up into the second place place from 2023 to 2024. So I think Satrix 40 might be very much familiar. People know it, it's been around the longest. It's probably why it's so popular. And then MSCI world number two now. So there is a little bit of a shift we're starting to see.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, the Satrix 40 was the first chair that I ever bought on the market. I remember it clearly when I opened my own. It wasn't a brokerage account at the time. I would have done it. I'm sure I would have done it directly through Satrix. I mean, these were before the days of easy equities when it was a lot easier to do this. So it would have been directly through Satrix. It probably would have been, I want to say, 10 or 11, maybe even 12 years. Yeah, somewhere there. Somewhere there. Anyway, so it shows how long this has been around actually. And Yeah, I mean Satrix 40 has been around forever.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And then I wanted to give one last random status just in terms of our app downloads. We've actually had about 5,000 app downloads in the last year and surprisingly majority are iOS downloads versus Android.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: No surprise there. Based on my podcast stats, I can tell you. So there's definitely a over indexing of Apple. I think Apple phones are just more expensive and so people who have spare income tend to have Apple devices. I personally have an extremely broken Xiaomi. It really is a complete basket case of a cell phone. I'm becoming my dad where I just want something that makes phone calls, quote, unquote it's mildly embarrassing. I cannot bring myself to spend money on what Apple wants for a new iPhone. So here I am with my very broken Android. But I guess I'm somewhat the exception because I also see that tend towards iOS in all the podcast stats. So I'm not surprised that your app is giving you the same sort of information there. So I think, Renee, let's move on then from the Satrix now stats, which really have been pretty interesting into this concept of money dysmorphia, which I think is a really important topic at this time of year. And you wrote a pretty interesting article on this recently. It's not a term that I'd really heard before. I think it's quite clever how it sort of all comes together. So let's start right at the beginning, which is in simple terms, what is money dysmorphia?
[00:11:24] Speaker B: So it's not a, it's not a clinical term, it's an Internet term. So it's used to describe a warped or rocky relationship or perception of your finances. So give you an example. If you, no matter how much money you make, you might feel financially insecure, so you might have a lot of money in the bank, but you still feel like you don't. Or if you are really cash strapped and on a tight budget, you still impulse buying. So you're not really kind of believing the real reality of your finances. So I would say that it's some stress around finance, money and finances is obviously quite normal, but this is, this is worse than the standard concerns around cost of living. It's more like obsessive or distorted, I'd say.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Interesting. So that sounds like a very unhealthy habit and I would imagine that social media probably doesn't help with this, especially among younger generations and the good old Instagram feed of people living their very best lives and or talking about, I mean, I'm going to be honest, I think some of the fire type content that I see is just as bad. And I know it's actually an unpopular view that I have, but I also don't think that making people feel terrible about buying anything nice is healthy either. You know, I, I really don't. It's as bad as living beyond your means. Just aim for something in the middle. I really don't understand this whole, you know, I'm going to live like I'm poor for the best years of my life so that I can retire with lots of money when I'm too old to do anything with it anyway. I will never Understand that for as long as I live.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: No, I agree. I also, I, I, I have the same kind of outlook as well. I think, you know, social media is definitely aggravating. Aggravating these feelings of inadequacy, if I suppose that's how you could call it. And also, you know, as a society, we tend to keep finances and money worries or stresses very private. We just, that's just what we do. Right. We don't talk about it very often. So I think we also developed this kind of idea of wealth and what success looks like. And you see all of this stuff online and I kind of want to say you scroll on social media and you see everyone living their best lives, to quote the social media terms. You might actually be doing fine financially, but it's a trying to keep up with people, at least the perception that you're trying to keep up with people. Or it could be a fact. Like if you look at Black Friday and Cyber Monday, you're getting bombarded with online ads on social media like it's ridiculous. So I definitely think social media aggravates this and makes us feel pretty bad about things.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And the more common one is that keeping up with the Joneses point, you know, it's living beyond their means. It's all that kind of stuff. I mean, I can understand why people do that. It's a very easy trap to fall into. Obviously, we all want nice things and it's frustrating when you can't have them. And it takes a lot of discipline to then say, you know, I actually don't need this thing or I can't really afford this thing. Especially when you have the money. There's a very big difference between I have 100 rand and I can afford to spend 100 rand on this thing. Those two things are not the same thing. Just because you have the money in your pocket doesn't mean you can afford the thing you're looking at. And that not understanding that difference is what gets people into all kinds of trouble. But the other thing you referenced there, which is in some ways even more interesting, is this mindset of, you know, I still can't afford this. So I think it's often when people haven't really grown up with much and then they get to a point where they actually have money in their lives and then they still struggle to actually spend it, they go the other way, where they live beneath their means, but almost to a level where it's unhealthy, right?
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Definitely. I think, you know, childhood definitely affects, you know, how we socialize and how we brought up and the relationship with money is definitely affected by that. So I think, you know, if you grew up in an environment where, say, money was a source of tension or it was scarce, and like parents might have said, money doesn't grow on trees. You know, we've all kind of heard that you're probably internalizing that and you develop, like an anxiety around money. Even if you are doing pretty well, you know, you might find it quite hard to spoil yourself or spend your money on something that you. You would enjoy. And then conversely to that, you know, maybe you grew up in an environment where money wasn't a problem and it was quite freely available. So you would probably adopt a more carefree attitude to money as an adult. There's a culture aspect to this, too. Some cultures see spending as being spendthrift and frugal as a virtue, whereas others see kind of consumption as normal. I guess it's around trying to recognize these patterns and trying to break them. And the first step is to reflect on your behaviors and your patterns and kind of how that's affecting your financial decision making and then understanding, educating yourself, setting some goals, getting support if you need as well. So I think, yeah, it's very complex. Kind of area of human nature, I guess, would be the way I would describe it.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And we all have our own tricks to kind of deal with it. I mean, my journey has been one of not growing up with any spare money at all. You know, there was a ton of pressure to get bursaries if I wanted to study what I wanted to study. You know, there was just never anything spare. And then, yeah, you know, if life goes to plan and you kind of get your adult life and you have some spare money, it actually takes you a while to believe it, you know, and then you have to be careful not to go, oh, you know, abundance. That also doesn't work, you know. So I find, like, my personal journey has been a pendulum. At times, you know, you feel like you kind of start too far one way and then you swing much too far the other way, and then you go, okay, I got to rein it in now. And maybe that's what most people have to go through. They almost have to taste the full spectrum to then find the middle, because it's quite difficult unless you've done that. You know, where is the middle? If you don't know where the ends are, how on earth do you know where the middle is?
[00:16:51] Speaker B: It's really difficult, honestly. I remember for me, like, when I First started earning money, my first job, it was like, wow, I've got all this cash. And like you fall into the traps of spending money very easily.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yep. No, you absolutely can. Look, I think it helps if you are very disciplined around, okay, this is the amount I need to save and invest every month. And then if this is what works for you, you can then literally treat the rest as fun money and then it almost doesn't matter what you spend it on. That doesn't work for me because I still treat everything in isolation. And I actually learned that in my corporate advisory days because I was working with clients who were literally, literally billionaires. And then you would go to, I don't know, you'd finish a meeting with them and then there'd be a place just outside and then you'd need to buy lunch or coffee or something. And a lot of these people especially like really hard working, self made, built it up from nothing, took risks in businesses. You try sell that person a coffee for twice what it should cost and they won't buy it. They could buy that whole coffee shop 30 times over, but don't rip them off on that one coffee. And, and I think that was such a cool lesson is to, and my approach in life is treat everything as a separate thing. You know, I know what a coffee should cost and so if it doesn't cost that, it's annoying and I'm probably not going to buy it even though I can afford it. Similarly, I don't beat myself up about an overseas holiday because that thing costs a lot of money whether you like it or not. And it's wonderful and it's great to be able to do it even though you can buy a gazillion coffees for the same price as your overseas holiday. So that's been, my personal method is to just compartmentalize everything I look at and just say is this thing worth it? In isolation, regardless of how much money I do or don't have. And that's something that has worked very well for me.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: That's a great approach actually. And it's definitely something you got to keep reminding yourself of because you don't want to, as you said earlier, you kind of want to enjoy your life. And actually when you do have the ability to, you know, buy a gazillion coffees, even though you probably wouldn't, but knowing the value of something is also very important because it helps you enjoy it. It's better than it would if you kind of, we're just spending frivolously.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: Absolutely and it really keeps you out of trouble. So it's quite important. I also saw in your article you actually referenced gender stereotypes, which is also quite interesting and they might play a role here. So I think everyone can fall into this trap. I mean, you and I have just proven it on this podcast. So it's. But it's still nuanced for each gender because I think there are still these societal norms that kind of filter through and there's still all the societal messaging that filters through. Gotten a hell of a lot better in, you know, the last couple of decades maybe, but it's still there. And you know, in your opinion, how does that affect the sort of gender stereotypes at play here?
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Geez, gender stereotyping is a huge topic. I mean, you could spend hours talking about this. I guess from my perspective, I would say it depends on how you social. It's more socializing as a child, you know, because that influences how you think about money. It's. It could be cultural, could be your family environment, could be your community. I can give you an example. Like, think of two young kids, like a 10 year old boy and a 10 year old girl. A young boy might be asked to go mow the lawn and. Or if he goes, gets paid 20 rand and he learns that he can do a task and he gets paid for it. And he'd probably go to the neighbor and demand 30 rand and make money that way. A young girl, for example, might be asked to look after her younger sibling because it's kind of the done thing. She probably won't get paid for it. So she doesn't learn anything except that she has to work for free. And I'm not saying that happens everywhere. I mean that's just a very general example. But women and men, I think women and men prioritize spending differently. Women focus on education, health care, looking after the home, making sure that there's food on the table, doing the grocery shopping. Men tend to focus on investments and when they do focus on investments, they focus on higher risks. Women tend to focus on lower risk opportunities and therefore less return. And I think also from a financial confidence perspective, women tend to have less confidence when it comes to finances. You know, my example, as you socialize as a child, it's also influencing. So yeah, it's a very complicated and in depth topic. But I think, you know, from a Satrix perspective, we also trying to focus a lot on encouraging women investors purely for this reason. So I think we're making small steps and small strides. So all positive.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: So yeah, yeah, it makes sense. I mean, look, it's so easy to offend half of earth when talking about anything that is remotely agenda stereotype. But I think a lot of what you've raised there is right. And you know, I think there's this world of equal opportunity now and we're certainly working towards that. And that's fantastic. It's maybe not there yet, but it should be and it will be, I hope soon. But I do also think that the genders do apply a slightly different lens when they look at things on average. Obviously there are exceptions and the reason I now believe that is because I've had small children and I have friends with small children and you can absolutely see a difference between little boys and little girls. It just is what it is like, never mind the academic textbooks or anyone else who may want to shout at me. It's a fact. Spend time around enough toddlers who are boys and girls and you will see on average there are just certain realities around risk taking and everything else. And you know, as people become adults, they learn to manage this and it changes and everything, but it is there. And so I can understand how that thing comes through on average in how people react to managing their money, etc. And it's important to understand the bias that you might come with depending on what gender you are and where you are on that full spectrum of being affected by this bias. You know, if you are a very strong risk taking person, then, you know, you need to think about that. Also, if you're someone who's very, very scared of this kind of thing, you've got to almost overcome that to learn that. Actually you're doing yourself a great disservice. You know, as with most things in life, extremities are not good. Somewhere in the middle is good. And if you can understand which extreme you're at and where your bias lies, then you have a better chance of getting past that. And actually, you know, managing yourself better, either being less risk taking or more risk taking and finding that appropriate point on the spectrum for your own personality. Right. And that's how you overcome this money dysmorphia. Although I know you've got a lot of other actually really practical, great advice on that. So maybe let's move to that. I mean, the article that you wrote had a very cool framework for how to maybe manage some of this money dysmorphia. So I'm going to open the floor to you now to take us through that.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Thanks, Ghost. Yeah, I do agree with your previous statements on you know, understanding your biases and kind of where you are on the spectrum, it does help you. But in terms of dealing with money dysmorphia, I think, you know, there's a couple of things you can do practically. First one is to take a step back and really understand your financial situation and kind of where you're at. And when you're doing that, analyze the patterns, your spending patterns. Like why are you impulse spending if you are impulse spender? Like, do you do it when you're stressed or you're emotional? Consider kind of, you know, are you worried about values and are you buying or spending money in terms that align with your value? So for example, if you're trying to build wealth for your future generations, or are you wanting to be a philanthropist and work with your community and donate money to charity, whatever is important to you. And once you've been able to kind of do that introspection and understand kind of where the behaviors are, you can work towards building healthier habits. And one of those things is once you've done that introspection, do the set up financial goals. So understand kind of where do you want to be short term, medium and long term. Are you saving for your retirement? Are you saving for a house, for example, whatever that might be? Because those kind of things are very positive incentives to kind of initiate action. Then I would suggest, you know, speak to somebody. Get an IFA or a financial advisor to help you if you need to. If you're in debt, consider a debt counselor or a credit coach. There are a lot of very talented and qualified people out there that can help give you advice. Trusted intermediary would be a good thing. And then I would be remiss to not say, keep investing. The Satrix now platform allows you to invest with 10 rand. So put aside, pay yourself first. If you can put aside 10 to 50 rand a month, then start doing that because you'll thank yourself in the long term.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree with all of that. So I think let's close off then with just recognizing where we are in the year. Tis the season for all kinds of stuff. And sadly, one of those things is credit card scams and fraud and getting taken for a ride and your holiday getting ruined by the fact that someone's now spent a gazillion rand on Facebook, ads in inverted commas and all the other things that I see online all the time. So part of personal finance is also just managing your own risk, not just around what's in your portfolio and your own biases and where you are in your journey as a family and all that other stuff. But it's also about being just eternally careful of fraud and scams. And I think you've probably got some festive tips around some of that stuff to bring this year to a close.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Definitely. It's rife across all, you know, all brands, all financial institutions. We're all struggling with the same thing. But I think to your point, you know, always be vigilant and be very careful and trust your intuition. From a very practical point of view, like if you're traveling and you're in the airport with free WI fi, don't do any financial transactions using free Wi Fi and stay off your banking apps and your investment apps. Enable your two FA or two factor authentication, make sure your passwords are strong. And then just from an investment point of view, I'd say never be pressurized into investing. If it doesn't feel right, don't go for it. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. So, yeah, I would say those are the key things to keep in mind.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Common sense, right? I mean, that's the, that's the way to do it. And like you say silly things like just using a little bit of data on your phone, rather hotspot it, then use the airport WI fi. I think if you're going offshore, it's even more severe. So just think about that. I mean, I've gotten to a point in my life where I just roam. It's really not that expensive. And then you're not sitting there struggling with free airport WI fi somewhere exotic. It's just not worth it. It's really not. You know, that can very quickly just ruin your holiday completely. But you've got to be vigilant back home as well. You really do have to just be careful all the time. So keep an eye on your statements. This festive season, you know, you might see your own bad spending habits, but at least you bought something for yourself. It's a lot worse if someone bought something for their partner instead of you buying for yourself. So if a TV went off your credit card, you better make sure it's a TV that you bought it. Seriously, just stay, stay safe out there. And I guess my last point is just thank you to those who have listened to Ghost Stories this year. It's all the Satrix podcasts, so we're going to do more of them next year. It's all very exciting. There's so much to learn, all about the products, all about the behavioral side and the Fact that you're listening to this and putting in the effort already suggests that you are firmly on the right track. But don't stop learning, don't stop sharing these podcasts with your friends and your family who you think would benefit from them. And I think don't be shy to have the conversations about money with people. For some reason, it's still this taboo topic. People will talk about the most outrageous things, but they will not talk about money. It's just incredible for me. So, you know, make that the topic and actually help people out. Share your insights with them, share content with them that you think is great from anyone, obviously not just from me. There's a lot of really good stuff out there. And also just reward yourself for getting this far in the year. I think that this is the time to, you know, have that extra ice cream, hang out with your family, go away for the night, just have fun. Watching every cent in December is also not fun. And if you go in with a decent plan of how much you can spend, then you can actually spend it with enjoyment as opposed to regret in January. So to the listeners of the show, have a fantastic festive season. Thank you so much for joining us this year. And Renee, I think we're going to have to get you back on here. I'm not sure this can be your only podcast or we're just going to break you out once a year, like the elf that entertains my son so much at this time of year. Once a day. Are you going to be our Christmas elf? December shows each year?
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Maybe. Maybe you can convince me to come back. I don't know. We'll see.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: There we go. We'll see how it goes. Renee, thank you so much. And to the listeners, thank you. Ciao. Satrix Investments Pty Ltd. And Satrix Managers RF Pty Ltd. Are authorized financial services providers. Nothing you have heard in this podcast should be construed as advice. Please do your own research and visit the Satrix website for more information on all their ETF products.
